shape
carat
color
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Noob in buying an engagement ring, help needed

kevindd992002

Rough_Rock
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Apr 6, 2021
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So I'm trying to find for an engagement ring here in the Philippines and have a relative that sources these. I have maybe close to a $4000 budget (up to $4500 if the price is a steal) and aiming for a bit under or over a 1 carat round diamond. I'm new to this and I've been researching for a couple of weeks now. From my research, I concluded that these are the lowest ratings that I need to go for:

Shape - Round

Color - J

Clarity - VS2

Cut - Excellent

Table - 53 to 58%

Depth - 59 to 62.3%

1. Are those the only specs that I need to be aware of? Or is this cheat sheet a better one to follow?

2. Prices here in the Philippines tend to be very expensive so I'm open to buying internationally where it's cheaper. Would buying in Israel Diamonds be cheaper compared to say buying from B2CJewels? Both of them ship to the Philippines. For a $4000 loose diamond, Israel Diamonds quoted only $39 for shipping while B2CJewels was around $130, so there's that. I also have to factor the import tax that I'll be paying if I decided to import this.

3. Is AGS generally better than GIA even though GIA looks like the standard certification entity for the most part?

Thanks for the help in advance! This diamond hunting process is not an easy task, especially for beginners.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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1. You have to consider all the diamond proportions, not just a select few. Also, not only the individual values but how they compliment with one another.

2. Buying a diamond is a big deal. Getting from a trusted vendor with a good reputation, good trade policy and well respected for their attention to quality cut stones & good customer service would all be a factor for me. All that is easily worth an extra $100 in shipping.

3. In short, any AGS 0 (ideal cut) stone will easily pass GIA XXX certification. However, very few GIA XXX stones can meet AGS 0 ideal cut criteria. Point blank, XXX certification is widely advertised as the "go to" but you really need to analyze the stone as there is some junk within that XXX designation.

What do you and yours value the most? Good value? Size? Color? Clarity? Cut/light performance?

There are a couple of J SI1 stones on WF right now just a hair over 1 carat for around $5k USD. A few just under for closer to $4k USD. I'm not sure what currency your $4k-$4.5k range is in, and I'm not sure if that amount is inclusive of duties & taxes typically associated with international shipping.

FYI, Jann Paul is a super ideal vendor located in Singapore that may be worth a look as well.

 

kevindd992002

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1. Would that cheat sheet I linked to be a good reference for the values that I'm looking for?

2. I agree. I value seller reputation, after-sales support, etc. the most and the extra $100 would also be worth it for me. However, since I'm new to this I still don't have enough information which seller has all these characteristics. I know Blue Nile is one of the best but they don't ship to the Philippines.

3. I see. So it is safe to rule out GIA and target AGS certified diamonds alone while, of course, considering all the specs?

From what I've been reading, cut/quality should be the most important among the 4C's. So I can sacrifice color and clarity to a J and a VS2, respectively, in favor of good cut quality. And of course, price would be a big factor, probably the biggest one. I don't want to cheap out but I don't want to buy an exorbitantly expensive diamond either.

$5K USD is too much for me. My budget range is in USD to make it easier for everyone and it doesn't include duties and taxes yet. So I'm targeting something closer to the $4K USD price point.

I'll check Jann Paul and see what information I get. I just need to know what questions to ask in the first place.

 

kevindd992002

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Interestingly enough, when I go to the JannPaul.com website, it looks like their site is broken as I always get a "coming soon" result when I try to search for their diamonds. Do they sell manually to people or something?

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Around here, cut is king. That is my most important C as well because frankly I believe if it can’t do the magic fire dance and oh and ah me and mine then I don’t see a point to buying a diamond at all.

That said, size normally gives cut a good run for its money and many folks will sacrifice the holy grail of cut for a little more size. To add more complexity some cultures will value high color and high clarity as a sign of purity and insist a portion of their money get tied up there.

And sometimes the person buying (many times the guy) isn’t aware of or has a different set of values than the wearer (many times the girl). For instance, women typically see color more easily than men and when people see tiny differences very easily this is called “color sensitivity”. Some women are like my wife, who see color very easily but isn’t necessarily bothered by it and that is called being “color tolerant”. The ability to see things very sharply and in focus is called visual acuity and someone with high acuity may want (or need) a higher clarity stone so they don’t see imperfections others can’t.

Lastly is a term called “mind clean” and many of us suffer from this. It’s when the clarity plot looks messy but our eyes can’t see the physical difference without a magnified scope. Or perhaps having a certain set of diamond proportions. Or even a certain size, color or clarity. Somehow our mind says if it’s not “this” then it’s not good enough despite what our eyes see and it drives us nuts.

I’m sure you didn’t come here for a psychology lesson but the reality is buying a diamond is an emotional purchase. It symbolizes love and is typically given or purchased as a gift. As such we want “the best” our money can buy so make our loved one happy, receive their praise for a job well done and ultimately feel good about ourselves.

All that jabbering said, knowing you and yours is such an important part of the process of finding the right stone and I would strongly encourage you to learn this and guide tour final decisions with this in mind. Sure, it all has to fit in budget but whatever you buy we want you ecatatic

 

kevindd992002

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Thanks. With all these information I'm getting, honestly it gets harder and harder for me to choose. There's just so much variety and I don't want to buy something that's overpriced.

If I see a diamond that "feels" right, is it fine to post back and ask for comments in this thread? I didn't realize that the HCA tool was only for 3 free tries.

 

MRBXXXFVVS1

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I don't know if your SO is color sensitive, but I personally would not go with a J as it will likely show some warmth. I would probably go as low as H, maybe I. You can probably go down to SI if the diamond is eye clean... If you and your SO are open to lab diamonds, your budget will go much further!

 

kevindd992002

Rough_Rock
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I don't think she is color sensitive at all. This is the first time I've heard about lab diamonds. I did a search and naturally I'm kinda leaning towards against them. I don't know how the general population here feel about them though. My big problem is that this is her first ring so I really don't know much about her taste. All I know is that, in the past, she was expressing that she wants her engagement ring to be at least 1 carat which I think most girls target at the very least.

No matter what, I know that whatever I pick she will definitely love the ring. Me being a technical person by profession is what's driving me to go initially by specs and ask advice from expert like you guys when I narrow down my choices.

 

sledge

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I didn't have time to address the other portion of your questions this morning.

1. Below are a list of proportions I utilize when shopping for others:

  • 54-57 table
  • 60-62.4 depth (prefer <62)
  • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, if paired with 40.6 pavilion)
  • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired with 34 crown)
  • 75-80 lower girdle facets (many prefer 75 for fatter arrows & bolder flashes)
  • Crown & pavilion angles must be complimentary. So a steep crown needs a shallow pavilion and vice versa. Some popular combos would be 35/40.6, 34/40.9 or 34.5/40.7 for example.
  • GIA or AGS certification
  • HCA of 0-2 (prefer 1-2, and if well cut slightly over 2 may work)
  • Not a proportion, but I prefer stones with advanced images as they help solidify a good decision

2. Here are some vendors I prefer. WhiteFlash (WF), Brian Gavin Diamonds (BGD), Victor Canera (VC) & HP Diamonds (HPD) for super ideals. Love Yukitel @ ID Jewelry in NYC for his ability to source XXX stones and provide advanced imagery and know how picky PS'ers are in cut quality. B2C is also good. Many rave about Blue Nile, and I have no issues outside of they don't offer advanced images, etc like some others. James Allen (JA) reluctantly makes the list, lol. I don't like how they hide certificates until requested, but the videos are good, they have large selection and you can find GIA or AGS, including their own H&A collection.

3. I wouldn't rule out GIA. There are some nice XXX stones. You just have to use parameters like above to sort through them and find the really nice ones.

 

kevindd992002

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
24

I didn't have time to address the other portion of your questions this morning.

1. Below are a list of proportions I utilize when shopping for others:

  • 54-57 table
  • 60-62.4 depth (prefer <62)
  • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5, if paired with 40.6 pavilion)
  • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41, if paired with 34 crown)
  • 75-80 lower girdle facets (many prefer 75 for fatter arrows & bolder flashes)
  • Crown & pavilion angles must be complimentary. So a steep crown needs a shallow pavilion and vice versa. Some popular combos would be 35/40.6, 34/40.9 or 34.5/40.7 for example.
  • GIA or AGS certification
  • HCA of 0-2 (prefer 1-2, and if well cut slightly over 2 may work)
  • Not a proportion, but I prefer stones with advanced images as they help solidify a good decision

2. Here are some vendors I prefer. WhiteFlash (WF), Brian Gavin Diamonds (BGD), Victor Canera (VC) & HP Diamonds (HPD) for super ideals. Love Yukitel @ ID Jewelry in NYC for his ability to source XXX stones and provide advanced imagery and know how picky PS'ers are in cut quality. B2C is also good. Many rave about Blue Nile, and I have no issues outside of they don't offer advanced images, etc like some others. James Allen (JA) reluctantly makes the list, lol. I don't like how they hide certificates until requested, but the videos are good, they have large selection and you can find GIA or AGS, including their own H&A collection.

3. I wouldn't rule out GIA. There are some nice XXX stones. You just have to use parameters like above to sort through them and find the really nice ones.

Thanks a lot! This definitely helps me move forward. I'll see what I can find using these information. Do any of these vendors usually give any discounts for first time buyers or any kind of promos for diamonds at all? I know I asked B2C and they only give 10% off for the setting, not for actual loose diamonds. And since I asked about Israel Diamonds earlier, are there any Israel-based online vendors that are reputable?

To start off, these choices were given to me by a relative that has a hobby of collecting diamonds:

1ct ($4635)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2s103993dgp3uhf/2201103810_1.00.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0rmx09av5ou9jgo/1.00.mp4?dl=0

1.03ct ($4759)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/esfbnwg51qov2zf/2368189435_1.03.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0ziem31v55wagy/1.03.mp4?dl=0

1.08ct ($6119)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/erro819ct7l3k8e/2213251875_1.08.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/djwfztpxbn1w4n8/1.08.mp4?dl=0

I apologize for the videos because their quality was sacrificed when they were sent to me compressed. I'll try and ask for better quality ones but I figured I still attach these low quality ones for now.

Realistically, I can only afford the 1.00ct or the 1.03ct options and their price difference is very small but they have a HCA rating of around 3+, IIRC. The 1.08ct option is too expensive for me considering I will still have the diamond set to my liking but this has a <2 HCA rating. What are your thoughts on these? I was told on another forum that these choices are rather expensive for what they are. I don't know why but those prices are on the cheaper side already here in the Philippines.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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BGD doesn't have the photos, certs or videos uploaded on this stone yet, but it appears to be a pretty sweet price. I would call and ask Lesley to post all the tech data so you can make a decision. Also, ask her to place on temporary hold while you finalize your decision.

BGD Signature H&A, 0.903 carats, J, SI1 @ $3,663 wire

FYI, they do ship internationally although it sounds like it will cost a few bucks.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Not a fan of the first two.

The crown/pavilion relationships aren't very complimentary and the reason you are getting higher HCA scores. Also with the 1 carat, it is carrying additional weight in the depth of the stone (likely to hit the magic 1 carat mark & boost profit) so the stone will size up small next to an ideal cut 1 carat stone.

Out of the 3 I like the proportions of the 1.08 the best, but it's out of your price range. Also, the proportions are on the border line of working well, and you'd want advanced images to confirm. More concerning is the fact the video makes the stone look cloudy/milky to my eyes. Maybe just a bad video. Most the time there aren't problems with VS2's but I did notice clouds are the grade setting inclusion with notes that additional clouds are not shown. Again, not a death warrant by any means but the video doesn't make me feel warm & fuzzy. All factors considered, I think it's a waste to consider since you can't afford anyhow.

 

kevindd992002

Rough_Rock
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BGD doesn't have the photos, certs or videos uploaded on this stone yet, but it appears to be a pretty sweet price. I would call and ask Lesley to post all the tech data so you can make a decision. Also, ask her to place on temporary hold while you finalize your decision.

BGD Signature H&A, 0.903 carats, J, SI1 @ $3,663 wire

FYI, they do ship internationally although it sounds like it will cost a few bucks.

Done! I chatted with Lesley and she's a nice gal and he definitely knows who you are, lol. She had me place the order with bank wire as the payment method to hold the stone while I make a decision. She said the stone is brand new and is still in the AGS lab. Photos, videos, and certs will be uploaded either by Friday or early next week. I also got an extra 8% discount because of their Diamond Month promotion.

1. Since we still don't have much specs information, this can all change our view on the sweetness of its price, right?

2. Are H&A diamonds generally considered cream of the crop?

3. At 0.903 carat, is it not "too small"? If I went under a carat, I was thinking more on the lines of 0.95 or so.

 

kevindd992002

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
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Not a fan of the first two.

The crown/pavilion relationships aren't very complimentary and the reason you are getting higher HCA scores. Also with the 1 carat, it is carrying additional weight in the depth of the stone (likely to hit the magic 1 carat mark & boost profit) so the stone will size up small next to an ideal cut 1 carat stone.

Out of the 3 I like the proportions of the 1.08 the best, but it's out of your price range. Also, the proportions are on the border line of working well, and you'd want advanced images to confirm. More concerning is the fact the video makes the stone look cloudy/milky to my eyes. Maybe just a bad video. Most the time there aren't problems with VS2's but I did notice clouds are the grade setting inclusion with notes that additional clouds are not shown. Again, not a death warrant by any means but the video doesn't make me feel warm & fuzzy. All factors considered, I think it's a waste to consider since you can't afford anyhow.

Ok, thanks for the comments. I will look for other stones.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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If you want to expand your budget, here are some options similar to that 1.08.

BGD Blue, 1.05 I VS2 @ $5,611 wire

I bought my wife a BGD Blue stone (H, VS2). Like this one, it too has medium blue fluorescence. While some are scared of fluor, it helps make a stone more affordable and in the case of BGD they vet the stone to ensure none of the negative effects go along with the positives (in select lighting, blue fluor can help "whiten" a stone ever so slightly).

Here are some options from WF. My personal favorites being the 1.058 & 1.047 stones. However, I threw a couple of premium selects (near miss ACA's) for fun.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Done! I chatted with Lesley and she's a nice gal and he definitely knows who you are, lol. She had me place the order with bank wire as the payment method to hold the stone while I make a decision. She said the stone is brand new and is still in the AGS lab. Photos, videos, and certs will be uploaded either by Friday or early next week. I also got an extra 8% discount because of their Diamond Month promotion.

1. Since we still don't have much specs information, this can all change our view on the sweetness of its price, right?

2. Are H&A diamonds generally considered cream of the crop?

3. At 0.903 carat, is it not "too small"? If I went under a carat, I was thinking more on the lines of 0.95 or so.

Lesley is a total sweetheart. She made my buying experience a complete joy. If you decide to purchase from them they will treat you good. Of course, that said, I wouldn't recommend someone bad to you.

1. I doubt BGD is going to move on their price. Sounds like they have already cut the stone and ran internal analysis to determine what they think AGS will grade the stone as. Sure, if the grading comes back softer, they may reduce the price. But if it comes back as expected I doubt it will move. Add on the 8% discount you are getting on top and I think that's a fair price.

2. In short, yes. They have ideal proportions AND optical symmetry to ensure maximum light performance. Additionally, you will get all advanced images that PROVE their performance.

3. According to the specs on the BGD page for the 0.903 stone, it measures as 6.15 x 6.19mm. The following 1.004 stone measures at 6.41 x 6.43mm. A difference of about 0.25mm, or 0.00984252. Taking this down far in the US imperial system that is about 5/512ths of an inch. Which sits between 1/128th and 1/64th of an inch. To put in relative terms, that is about as "thick" as a sheet of paper. While you may see the difference in a side by side comparison, it would never be memorable or feel "small" for a 1 carat stone. However, this might be a MIND CLEAN issue for you. Despite not being able to see the difference, some "have" to be at 1ct+.

 

kevindd992002

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
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If you want to expand your budget, here are some options similar to that 1.08.

BGD Blue, 1.05 I VS2 @ $5,611 wire

I bought my wife a BGD Blue stone (H, VS2). Like this one, it too has medium blue fluorescence. While some are scared of fluor, it helps make a stone more affordable and in the case of BGD they vet the stone to ensure none of the negative effects go along with the positives (in select lighting, blue fluor can help "whiten" a stone ever so slightly).

Here are some options from WF. My personal favorites being the 1.058 & 1.047 stones. However, I threw a couple of premium selects (near miss ACA's) for fun.

I'm still trying to keep it at the $4000 - $5000 range but with natural lighting will you see the Blue Fluor of those BDG Blue stones? In general, are fluorescent diamond cheaper?

I'm trying to check those WF recommendations but WF's website is supppperr slow! Is it just me or is it slow for everybody? I was able to chat with them though and they confirmed that they don't ship to the Philippines so I guess I can cross them off my list.

Lesley is a total sweetheart. She made my buying experience a complete joy. If you decide to purchase from them they will treat you good. Of course, that said, I wouldn't recommend someone bad to you.

1. I doubt BGD is going to move on their price. Sounds like they have already cut the stone and ran internal analysis to determine what they think AGS will grade the stone as. Sure, if the grading comes back softer, they may reduce the price. But if it comes back as expected I doubt it will move. Add on the 8% discount you are getting on top and I think that's a fair price.

2. In short, yes. They have ideal proportions AND optical symmetry to ensure maximum light performance. Additionally, you will get all advanced images that PROVE their performance.

3. According to the specs on the BGD page for the 0.903 stone, it measures as 6.15 x 6.19mm. The following 1.004 stone measures at 6.41 x 6.43mm. A difference of about 0.25mm, or 0.00984252. Taking this down far in the US imperial system that is about 5/512ths of an inch. Which sits between 1/128th and 1/64th of an inch. To put in relative terms, that is about as "thick" as a sheet of paper. While you may see the difference in a side by side comparison, it would never be memorable or feel "small" for a 1 carat stone. However, this might be a MIND CLEAN issue for you. Despite not being able to see the difference, some "have" to be at 1ct+.

Right, thanks for recommending her.

1. Ok, I'll post the specs as soon as I see them uploaded.

2. Is there any disadvantage to getting H&A's over regular ones though?

3. It sure is a mind clean issue for me but it's the same for any of my purchases. But I know I'll get over it pretty quickly especially if the price of the under 1 ct. diamond is very attractive. However, I know my girl wants 1 ct so there's that. She'll appreciate the .903, of course, but at the end of the day you know the thought of her hoping for at least a 1 ct is at the back of her head and this will probably kill me, lol. Is there a wise reason for aiming for an exact 1 ct diamond?

And btw, I just got an email from JannPaul and the lady is apologizing for their website because it's being revamped and the target date of completion is September. However, she can help me with my requirements through email and they even have a live curated sessions that you can request for to see the diamond cuts. I'll send the target specs to her and see what she gives back to me. Oh, and shipping to the Philippines is free for them so that's a plus. What is your experience and comment on this vendor?

 

kevindd992002

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
24

We have the specs for the BDF 0.903 diamond already:

So from the target specs you use when buying for others, I'd say:

Table not met because it's 57.1

Depth met at 61.7

Crown/pavilion not sure if ok at 34.6/40.8

Where would I see the lower girdle facets?

 
Last edited:

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Fluorescence is activated when it is exposed to certain UV lighting. While blue is the most common color, there are other colors too. The level of fluor (intensity) tells us how responsive it is to UV light.

GIA and AGS grade similar but have slight variances in the way they report. GIA can assign a grade of none, faint, medium, strong or very strong.

AGS views things a little differently and uses grades of negligible, medium, strong & very strong. Their reasoning is the lower levels have no meaningful impact on price and/or appearance.

The higher grade, or intensity, of fluor the more the diamond is discounted. So a negligible stone should trade at full price where a medium will enjoy a slight price discount (or should anyhow). And a strong or very strong should trade at a slightly better discount. At least that is the current trend.

To add a little more complexity to the situation, to understand what effects fluor will have you also have to consider the undertone of the diamond. The most popular undertone that the majority reference is yellow undertone. Consequently you will frequently hear that a lower graded stone of K is more warm (or yellow) than a higher grade of F or G. However, like fluor, diamonds have multiple undertone colors such as brown, grey, etc. However, those undertones have to be disclosed at certain color grades.

I mention the above to say that in lower colored stones with yellow undertone mixed with a blue fluor can have a whitening effect on the appearance of the stone. Different stone undertones & fluor color combinations may have different (and desirable) effects. But again, the vast majority is yellow stones and blue fluor so we will focus on that. To make it a little more tricky, the intensity level of the UV lighting and also the intensity level of the fluor will determine how much whitening effect occurs (if any). And if you are in an area with no UV there is no effect. Using my wife’s own stone (H, MBF) as reference I will say we have not seen any crazy night & day differences. There may be a small difference but not meaningful, at least to us. So while this is a perk, my opinion is you shouldn’t consider fluor as a way to combat color sensitivity.

On the flip side, a stone with higher color grade of D-F may appear to have a slight bluish hue in select UV lighting (mostly outdoors). Depending on the wearer, they may find this attractive or disturbing. Consequently you may see less discount on lower colored stones such as J and bigger discounts on higher grades.

The bigger concern is that fluor stones can create a milky or cloudy effect. This is very undesirable and probably why many avoid it. In the case of BGD, they very carefully vet their stones especially the BGD Blue line to ensure there are no clarity issues and you only gain the benefits of fluor.

This topic is very sensitive with people and I hope I have explained in a neutral way that informs you properly to make your own decision. If you wish to get into further nuances, you can do a search on this forum where myself and several of the various vendor reps dive into much more detail. But careful, some heat was also involved in the conversations, lol.

 

AllAboardTheBlingTrain

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
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And btw, I just got an email from JannPaul and the lady is apologizing for their website because it's being revamped and the target date of completion is September. However, she can help me with my requirements through email and they even have a live curated sessions that you can request for to see the diamond cuts. I'll send the target specs to her and see what she gives back to me. Oh, and shipping to the Philippines is free for them so that's a plus. What is your experience and comment on this vendor?

sledge knows so much more about diamonds so I won’t comment on those and let him take the lead, but as far as JannPaul goes I’ve heard they’re really good though never used them but they also carry super ideals. They are more expensive than the US vendors I think but as you won’t have to pay for shipping with them maybe it will balance out. There are some members on PS who have bought through Jann Paul - maybe they can chime in with their experiences? @TripEx is the only one I remember.

 

kevindd992002

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
24

Fluorescence is activated when it is exposed to certain UV lighting. While blue is the most common color, there are other colors too. The level of fluor (intensity) tells us how responsive it is to UV light.

GIA and AGS grade similar but have slight variances in the way they report. GIA can assign a grade of none, faint, medium, strong or very strong.

AGS views things a little differently and uses grades of negligible, medium, strong & very strong. Their reasoning is the lower levels have no meaningful impact on price and/or appearance.

The higher grade, or intensity, of fluor the more the diamond is discounted. So a negligible stone should trade at full price where a medium will enjoy a slight price discount (or should anyhow). And a strong or very strong should trade at a slightly better discount. At least that is the current trend.

To add a little more complexity to the situation, to understand what effects fluor will have you also have to consider the undertone of the diamond. The most popular undertone that the majority reference is yellow undertone. Consequently you will frequently hear that a lower graded stone of K is more warm (or yellow) than a higher grade of F or G. However, like fluor, diamonds have multiple undertone colors such as brown, grey, etc. However, those undertones have to be disclosed at certain color grades.

I mention the above to say that in lower colored stones with yellow undertone mixed with a blue fluor can have a whitening effect on the appearance of the stone. Different stone undertones & fluor color combinations may have different (and desirable) effects. But again, the vast majority is yellow stones and blue fluor so we will focus on that. To make it a little more tricky, the intensity level of the UV lighting and also the intensity level of the fluor will determine how much whitening effect occurs (if any). And if you are in an area with no UV there is no effect. Using my wife’s own stone (H, MBF) as reference I will say we have not seen any crazy night & day differences. There may be a small difference but not meaningful, at least to us. So while this is a perk, my opinion is you shouldn’t consider fluor as a way to combat color sensitivity.

On the flip side, a stone with higher color grade of D-F may appear to have a slight bluish hue in select UV lighting (mostly outdoors). Depending on the wearer, they may find this attractive or disturbing. Consequently you may see less discount on lower colored stones such as J and bigger discounts on higher grades.

The bigger concern is that fluor stones can create a milky or cloudy effect. This is very undesirable and probably why many avoid it. In the case of BGD, they very carefully vet their stones especially the BGD Blue line to ensure there are no clarity issues and you only gain the benefits of fluor.

This topic is very sensitive with people and I hope I have explained in a neutral way that informs you properly to make your own decision. If you wish to get into further nuances, you can do a search on this forum where myself and several of the various vendor reps dive into much more detail. But careful, some heat was also involved in the conversations, lol.

Ok, this looks like another can of worms. I can see how the diamond industry is really one that takes a lot of experience to get into. As my first ever purchase of a diamond, I think I'm better off with no fluor, at least for the time being.

sledge knows so much more about diamonds so I won’t comment on those and let him take the lead, but as far as JannPaul goes I’ve heard they’re really good though never used them but they also carry super ideals. They are more expensive than the US vendors I think but as you won’t have to pay for shipping with them maybe it will balance out. There are some members on PS who have bought through Jann Paul - maybe they can chime in with their experiences? @TripEx is the only one I remember.
It's not like the shipping fee difference is that high ($78 vs $0) but it's still there. I hope @TripEx can chime in this discussion.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,482

In regards to your other questions.

Normally the biggest downfall to buying a branded super ideal H&A stone is price. To get the proper angles and proportions of a stone to provide ideal light return you have to waste more diamond rough and spend more time cutting the stone to that precision level. So there is more work and less weight to distribute costs. So it appears $/carat is more expensive to the uninformed buyer. However, in select situations the savings is very minimal. I’m not knocking your price range but honestly for $3,600 I can’t see this being a deal where you get more for the same dollars by going a different route. More importantly, for some of us, the absolute most fire and sparkle is what makes the world go round.

Back to the size thing, I agree it’s totally mental. Lots of diamonds are (poorly) cut to reach those “magic weights” like 1ct, 1.5ct, 2ct, etc.

It’s such a silly thing in my opinion as carat weight is derived by length, width and depth. Theoretically I could give you a diamond that is 1/4” wide and 1” tall and it wouldn’t be the same. Why? Technically it would be 1 carat, right? Well in this case I don’t know as I didn’t check the math, but for this riddle the effect is the same. Your girl would be livid because she didn’t want a super tall and super skinny diamond, yet it was “technically” 1 carat.

The same thing is going on here. The difference in total diameter is the thickness of a piece of copy paper. That is crazy tiny difference.

I’m on my mobile now but when I get back there is a site we can put in exact measurements and you can see a side by side to get a better visualization.

Ultimately I can’t change your mind. You and her have to okay with it. My wife’s stone is 0.867. She intitially wanted smaller and I wanted 2+ carats for her. The initial compromise was 1 carat and what I bought was the reality. She’s showed it off a lot and people are mesmerized by the beauty and design (unique e-ring). They always think it’s larger than a carat.

In all cases, you do you. If you want to be closer to 1 carat then we will keep looking.

 

kevindd992002

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 6, 2021
Messages
24

In regards to your other questions.

Normally the biggest downfall to buying a branded super ideal H&A stone is price. To get the proper angles and proportions of a stone to provide ideal light return you have to waste more diamond rough and spend more time cutting the stone to that precision level. So there is more work and less weight to distribute costs. So it appears $/carat is more expensive to the uninformed buyer. However, in select situations the savings is very minimal. I’m not knocking your price range but honestly for $3,600 I can’t see this being a deal where you get more for the same dollars by going a different route. More importantly, for some of us, the absolute most fire and sparkle is what makes the world go round.

Back to the size thing, I agree it’s totally mental. Lots of diamonds are (poorly) cut to reach those “magic weights” like 1ct, 1.5ct, 2ct, etc.

It’s such a silly thing in my opinion as carat weight is derived by length, width and depth. Theoretically I could give you a diamond that is 1/4” wide and 1” tall and it wouldn’t be the same. Why? Technically it would be 1 carat, right? Well in this case I don’t know as I didn’t check the math, but for this riddle the effect is the same. Your girl would be livid because she didn’t want a super tall and super skinny diamond, yet it was “technically” 1 carat.

The same thing is going on here. The difference in total diameter is the thickness of a piece of copy paper. That is crazy tiny difference.

I’m on my mobile now but when I get back there is a site we can put in exact measurements and you can see a side by side to get a better visualization.

Ultimately I can’t change your mind. You and her have to okay with it. My wife’s stone is 0.867. She intitially wanted smaller and I wanted 2+ carats for her. The initial compromise was 1 carat and what I bought was the reality. She’s showed it off a lot and people are mesmerized by the beauty and design (unique e-ring). They always think it’s larger than a carat.

In all cases, you do you. If you want to be closer to 1 carat then we will keep looking.

I literally am amazed on how you present your arguments :) I know you make it a point to be as neutral as possible but you do make really valid points.

This is so much easier if my gf is part of the hunt but since this is an engagement ring, I'd have to rely on research, my own intuition,and most importantly by the advices yiu guys give me. I'm starting to understand how it's not all about carat spec.

As for the 0.903 BGD that I have on hold, if you can't consider that a deal then we probably need to look for better ones. I was under the assumption the price is a deal/steal but I don't have price basis of any sort, so I easily got that wrong.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,482

I’m on my mobile so maybe I mistyped something. In your case I think the BGD stone is actually a really awesome deal. I’m not worried about the fluor in the least and you are getting an 8% discount on top of the $3,600 wire price which is another $250 or so off the price.

I have no problems looking for other stones but I’d urge you to keep that stone on hold for a bit longer. People do lurk here and will snap up recommendations we make.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,482

As promised, side by side comparison of the 0.903 and 1.004 BGD stones I linked earlier. This is using actual diamond measurements, a size 6 finger and 2mm width band.

The smaller stone is on the left. As you can see, the difference is very, very minimal.

Capture0.PNG

Capture1.PNG

Capture2.PNG

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,482

We have the specs for the BDF 0.903 diamond already:

So from the target specs you use when buying for others, I'd say:

Table not met because it's 57.1

Depth met at 61.7

Crown/pavilion not sure if ok at 34.6/40.8

Where would I see the lower girdle facets?

Thanks for sharing the AGS link. Does Lesley have an ETA when they will post the video, picture, ASET, idealscope and H&A images? I checked their webpage and those aren't up yet.

The clarity plot looks good for an SI1. Because I am particular with clarity, I would ask Lesley if the stone is 100% eye clean. This is tricky because there is no "universal" definition of eye clean. Many define as 10" away with 20/20 vision from the top only. I am more critical and like to define as 6" away with 20/20 vision from the top, sides & bottom.

I don't anticipate any issues, but given the shipping distance you need to confirm.

Also, the table of 57.1 is just fine. In GIA land, that would be a 57. AGS reports more accurately and the 0.1 isn't going to make any difference. The depth is good. And the c/p relationship looks amazing at 34.6/40.8.

FYI, the LGF's are 76 which I prefer. The smaller the number, the fatter the arrows. It has small effects on other attributes as well, but I don't want to confuse you any further. Short version is this stone has optimal properties for maximum beauty!

I really don't anticipate any issues at all with this stone, but those other images & videos will help solidify this as a top tier selection.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,482

In regards to price, let's first set the bar.

BGD Blue, 0.903 @ $3,663 wire - 8% discount ($293) = $3,370

$3,370 / 0.903 carats = $3,732 per carat

That said, here are some possible alternates. These are among some of the better options I'm seeing. Again, just kind of comes down to how much you want to spend. The 0.903 seems to be a really good value for the money and the fact it's a super ideal stone.

Possible alternate #1:

JA True Heart, 1.06ct J-VS2 @ $4,690

$4,425 per carat

Hearts image looks clean. Ideal scope pink is over saturation and looks good. HCA gets excellent score as I found using PS search engine. You would want to request a cert to look at actual values before making a final decision. I am concerned about the black crystal on the top and the stone not being 100% eye clean.

Possible alternate #2:

WF ACA 1.058 @ $4,961 wire

$4,689 per carat

Possible alternate #3:

WF ACA 1.068 J-SI1 @ $5,039 wire

$4,718 per carat

Possible alternate #4:

B2C Jewels Perfection 1.03 J-VVS2 @ $5,254 wire

$5,143 per carat

Not sure what is up with Brian's website. It shows there to be an ASET, idealscope and H&A images, but they are broken when I click on them. If interested, make a call and ask him to fix so we can check them out. Looking at the AGS cert & proportions I assume this will be a top tier diamond.

Possible alternate #5:

WF Premium Select (near miss ACA) 1.11 J-VS2 @ $5,428 wire

$4,890 per carat

Doesn't quite qualify for true H&A status, but it's very close. You get the same trade benefits as an ACA for the future. Might be a good way to gain a little size and clarity although I realize it's at the top of your price range.

 

John Pollard

Rough_Rock
Staff member
Premium
Joined
Dec 2, 2020
Messages
6

I thought it might be useful to include some further 'real world' context about spread.

Physical spread in millimeters is important. Less talked about, but also related to size appearance, is visual spread - based on whether a diamond returns light from edge to edge in different lighting conditions. For example, the well cut 6.00 mm stone below appears larger, visually, than a 6.25 mm stone of lesser cut quality when both are removed from bright lighting.

Explained in detail on our carat weight page.

https://www.pricescope.com/education/diamond-carat#Visual-Spread

@sledge is known to be a great "cut quality caretaker," so no worries @kevindd992002 . As long as spread was a topic I thought the information might be interesting.

pricescope-education-102-diamond-carat-lighting-bright-normal-1024x576.jpg

 

CutMonkey

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 5, 2003
Messages
45

Ok, this looks like another can of worms. I can see how the diamond industry is really one that takes a lot of experience to get into. As my first ever purchase of a diamond, I think I'm better off with no fluor, at least for the time being.

It's not like the shipping fee difference is that high ($78 vs $0) but it's still there. I hope @TripEx can chime in this discussion.

I've purchased from Brian Gavin, Whiteflash, and JannPaul, and in my opinion, you can't go wrong with any of them.

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
4,482

Thank you for the kind words @John Pollard. :cool2:

Also, I am enjoying the new articles. When discussing edge to edge brightness I have frequently quoted this video @Garry H (Cut Nut) created some time back.

I think it drives home your point. And as added bonus it relates back how an idealscope (IS) image translates to real world performance that our eyes can see.

 

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